Rosy Aronson: Wisdom Keeper, Author, & Creative Activist on Human Design, Gene Keys, & Walking a Fine Line


Published 06/23/2020

Amy: We’re so happy to have you here today, Rosie. You’re one of my favorite people and you have a real creative and nourishing inspiration in life. Thanks for being with us. I wanted to start by asking about- I have this sense of you as being someone who’s had a really creative, winding path in life where you’ve explored a lot of different things, and studied a lot of different things. I’m wondering if there was a moment, I don’t know what your early years were like, but I’m wondering if there was a moment or some time in your life when you realized, “I’m not going to be living a normal life, whatever I might have thought.” I’m curious if there was like a moment when you realized that you were going to be going down this sort of alternative path in life or where you’re going to have to go your own way. Whether that was a moment or a process, I’m curious if you can speak to that a little bit.

Rosy: Sure, I’m happy to do that. Thank you both for including me in your beautiful, creative venture. It was so funny to me when you said, “I wonder if there was a moment in your life where you had this thought.” In my mind, I had the same thought and the moment I realized that I wasn’t normal. I knew where you were going with that. It has been a realization in my life over and over and over again. “Oh, wait a second. I’m not normal. I’m never going to fit in.” It’s funny too, I’ll just start with a little Human Design here because what I’m thinking is that the 47 Line 3, which is my Gene Keys language. It’s my life’s work. In Human Design language, it’s the Personality Sun. It’s all about moving through various forms of oppression in order to discover that you are okay.

There’s something about the realization that I may not be normal, but I’m okay. I think those two things together have been an ongoing theme in my life. Even from when I was very little, I was always really interested in things that other people weren’t. I remember getting the ESP book or being into the reincarnation movies with Barbra Streisand, and I was very interested in the occult. I grew up in a kind of Jewish, humanistic family, very service-oriented, but my mother was not a woman of faith. It wasn’t about faith or spirituality or anything like that. It was more about, “We’re human, who knows that there’s a God, let’s take care of each other here on Earth.” Yet, I still got kind of like a Jewish upbringing. I went to synagogue and was Bat Mitzvahed and all that kind of stuff. I was always doubting, I’d pour through the Bible and it didn’t resonate with me. The same thing happened in school, I always felt like there was something missing there.

Ever since I can remember this has been a theme. When I got to college, that meant moving out of my loving, totally crazy household. We’ve got these interpersonal dynamics that were super kooky, but also these really big hearts, loving people, which I think also made me a discerner. From the beginning, nothing was easy. Nothing was simple. Nobody was good or bad. It was all one big puzzle. Once I left my home and went to school in Ann Arbor, things started opening up for me. I learned about transpersonal psychology, I got very involved in social change, the Women’s Studies movement, and I started seeing things more and more outside of the conventional framework. I stopped shaving my legs. I started meditating.

Then, I went to study abroad in Spain, which is actually really interesting, because I think I was in Spain during the supernova in 87. That’s kind of connected to the Human Design birth process, which I thought was kind of interesting. There might have been some seeds planted there. That’s where I met this anarchistic, Danish visionary artist. That was the moment where I totally got off the conventional pathway. I always had this sort of weird private life where I was exploring the forbidden, the occult, all that stuff, but this time, it forced me into the public with that. So, I finished my degree and then we went off to Europe.

I was painting and I got involved in all kinds of Primal Scream therapies, new age, and new thought. Boy, did he have a shadow, but he was living in the light. He was an anarchist, he only had one pair of pants, and he totally trusted in the invisible forces of the universe to guide him through his path. So, he was an incredible teacher, in many ways, even though he was also a bit nutty. He was much older than me and he had done way too much acid. So, he was a little bit unstable, let’s just say. It got me out of that trap because I would have gotten my BA and then I would have gotten my PhD and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Instead, I went on this incredible adventure, which led me into a kind of New Age territory, which led me into the expressive arts from a young age shamanistic perspective. That brought me back to the States and eventually brought me back to CIIS, where I started to incorporate more of that transpersonal psychotherapy with the Expressive Arts. This led me to have the courage to be interested in or drawn by things like Human Design. I had so much practice at that point in getting off the conventional track that it wasn’t like a shock to my system. I had already disappointed my parents like 1,000 times. That was an interesting response. I didn’t know what was going to come out of my mouth. I could keep going, but much more has happened. I think that’s a good start.

Amy: Would you say that was the beginning of you starting to go deeper into some specific systems? I think you studied Holotropic Breathwork, is that right?

Rosy: It wasn’t Holotropic Breathwork. It was a form of breath work, where we were working with the trauma related to birth and also using birth as a metaphor for creativity. The woman who taught me was an American woman living in Europe, who was very involved in waterbirth, in actually facilitating birth. So, it was both the psychological process, a technique used to heal birth trauma, and also a way to bring children into the world in a new way.

This is an interesting thing. I don’t know, I’ve just primed for this in my life, I’ve just always been very aware of shadows. I’ve been drawn to beautiful systems, but almost immediately- and this can be connected to the 3/5/2, maybe the 47, and sensitivity to oppression and the various increasingly subtle ways that oppression shows up in systems, spiritual communities, political communities, or professional communities, it doesn’t matter. I never had an experience of just getting into a system and not immediately being confronted with a shadow. My process was always about separating out the baby in the bathwater, always. Even in the new age and the rebirthing that I did. Boy, there were a lot of shadows there, which was what led to my writing, Walking a Fine Line.

Amy: I know you’ve studied a lot of different systems, and yet, I have the sense that you’ve never sort of stuck with just one and aligned yourself with it or been a representative of it. Maybe this is why, since you’re saying with each system you’ve encountered you’ve kind of seen the light and the shadow, side by side. Maybe because of that, it wasn’t right for you to align yourself with just one.

Rosy: I love this question, and I love that you’re asking it of me. This is the irony, I go very deep when I get into a new system. It’s not like I bump into the shadow and then I kind of chuck it, I’ll still go very deep. I was in the rebirthing community for eight years and I was very connected. I practiced it professionally. It was a huge part of my life. With Human Design, I went deep, deep into that rabbit hole. I did align enough with it to teach it, write about it, and work with it. I don’t know how many readings I did, hundreds or maybe even thousands. I did go full-on into the systems, but my work within it was refining. Maybe that’s the Virgo in me or something. It was about realizing that all systems are only as powerful, healthy, balanced, and integrity-rich as the individuals who are using them.

The track of the learning of the system and then there’s that meta perspective as to how it’s being used. Is it actually being used in a way that’s truly empowering and freeing people, that’s actually connecting people in healthy ways? Or, is it being used in ways that subtly is actually enslaving or trapping them? All systems have both potentials, but that doesn’t mean I would want to throw any of the systems that I’ve learned out. I love them. However, it’s true that I have not been able to say, “This is my system. This one I will promote and I will stick with for the rest of my life.” It is so frustrating.

For the marketer in me, I’m like, “Oh my god, Rosie just stay in one place long enough for people to recognize that this is something that you have to offer.” Maybe that’s also the 3/5, it’s so interesting. It was really connecting with my gut. My intuition, which was the card that I drew for us today, was what kind of led me to leave Human Design, or at least integrate it in such a way that got me cast out of the Jovian Archive. There’s been a lot of pain in my heart because I’ve loved the systems, I’ve loved the communities I’ve been a part of, and I never wanted to be separate. I just wanted to bring more in, but often, the leaders within a particular system didn’t want me to do that. I was a reluctant outcast, a reluctant heretic. I am such a people pleaser. The last thing I want to do is rebel, but my whole life has been one giant reluctant, unintentional act of rebellion.

John: It does bring a Third Line process for me, that you’re describing. It’s like making and breaking bonds, testing and seeing if something actually works or not, and seeing what’s actually going on there. The Third Line brings the change with a mutation.

Rosy: Absolutely. My heart wishes that the world was more embracing of the Threes. I think we could all benefit from that so much, that alchemy. In a way, I think that’s what drew me to Human Design, the incredible alchemy between the soul and the body. You’re taking these two different entities, beings, forces, or energies, and you’re bringing them together to create something entirely new. It’s not like 1 + 1 = 2, it’s like 1 + 1 = the Divine. Something complete. An incredible, magical synthesis where there’s room for paradox.

For me, that’s just kind of the seed, the fractal truth that can then be applied in so many different areas. Oh my god, that’s creativity, where we can take things that are very different from each other and find a way to let them dance together without necessarily forcing them into submission. To allow something new to be born out of those things. I think that’s why I’ve tried to bring in things like expressive arts into Human Design. I’m trying to bring Human Design and the Gene Keys together, even in those areas where there’s a little friction. There’s something called creative friction. I celebrate creative friction and sometimes I wish society did more because it doesn’t all the time.

Amy: I think it’s actually just one of the greatest gifts that you bring. In working with you, that was something really liberating for me. It was maybe also liberating for the heretic in me to get to see that there’s so much that can come out of that kind of co-creative process with whatever you’re working with. It’s a theme we see everywhere. It’s like playing music or being really talented and refined in what you study. At some point, it has to be creative or what’s the point? You’re just regurgitating things. I think that creative piece is what a lot of us connect to as just being human and certainly as individuals.

Rosy: So true. When you said that, I was thinking, “Yes, you learn the scales first, and then you improvise.” It’s not about not learning the scales, because I know, that’s one of the shadows of spiritual explorers, or wisdom seekers. They do little shallow dips into a lot of different systems, and they’re not really going deep. They’re not integrating it to the extent where they would get a foundation that they can start to play with.

I wanted to share something with you like in relation to the system thing that came up for me when you were talking. It’s like a model of the heroic path that my expressive arts therapy teacher in Denmark taught us. I put it in my ‘Walking a Fine Line’ book. It talks about the five phases of the creative process or the heroic process. I say this because I think what we’re all here for is freedom. I really think that Human Design is so much about true liberation. When individuals are liberated, we can come together and liberate the planet in ways where we all bring our authentic gifts to the table.

She talks about how there are these five phases. Things start with chaos, emptiness, and that void. That could look like depression or just not knowing what’s next in one’s life. I’m just giving you a really boiled-down version of this. The next stage has to do with idealization. It’s in this idealization that you might get that special self-help book that opens your mind, or you meet the great teacher or great system that suddenly answers all of the questions that you have at that stage. It’s an amazing time when you’re moving from emptiness or chaos to idealization, because you feel like, “Finally, I have a manual that’s going to teach me how to get out of this.” It’s like an amorphous, suffering blob that I’m in that turns into some kind of direction, some kind of right use of my energy.

At some point in the idealization phase, you realize that, especially if you start to identify too much with the ideal, it becomes black and white. It loses some nuance. We idealize some people positively, we idealize some people negatively. There’s sort of a right and wrong way to do things. At some point, we move into the confrontation phase, which is where we kind of realize that the one we idealized isn’t perfect and that the one we demonize may have some good qualities. This includes the inside of ourselves. We start to see the world in a much more nuanced way.

Then comes the next phase, forgiveness. This is where we have to kind of like take all of our projections home, integrate them inside, forgive others, and forgive ourselves for kind of losing ourselves in order to find ourselves. Then comes the freedom. When you’re truly in the freedom phase, you kind of know when it’s time to tap into one of those other phases. You’re not bound by any of those phases. That’s kind of how I see my relationship to the systems that I’ve learned in my life.

Now, it’s not like Human Design is the only thing that I do, but there are moments when that’s the only thing that’s needed for myself or for someone else. There are other times when it’s like, “You can know that system till the cows come home,” but if you don’t learn how to trust someone and be loved by someone, even when you feel you’re most lovable if you’re not working attachment issues through, it’s not going to work for you. There are different moments when each thing is needed. That’s the liberation that I feel committed to supporting; people trusting themselves, to know what they need and when. I think Human Design is such an incredible beginning to that process, it breaks you out of conditioning in a way that no other system does.

As far as I know, I’ve never experienced a system that so methodically shows people a way out, but that doesn’t mean it’s simple. For example, sometimes your true nature matches your conditioning. This is something really difficult for me. I’ve got the channel of nurturing connected to my Gate of yes. That is a part of my definition, but I was conditioned to be such a caretaker at the expense of myself. It’s taken me a really long time to find out when it’s authentic caretaking and when it’s my conditioning coming through. It’s not only so simple.

John: It’s really interesting. That touches on something that Amy and I have been looking at where the conditioning seems to distort the life force. From the point of view of Human Design, we’ll go into some of these Not-Self themes around mental decision-making of the mind. Then, we see something that would be true and proper to the individual, a certain frequency or channel definition, like you’re saying the 27/50 then starts getting distorted into something that’s actually not really correct for the individual. For a Generator, a lot of the focus is self-oriented. If the Generator is not caring for themselves in that process, and they’re putting all their focus on the other, like maybe a Projector would, then you see this Type distortion from the point of view of Human Design.

Rosy: I’m absolutely right there with you. We humans can distort anything; we can distort the best stuff. We can turn our gifts into shadows, but we can also turn our shadows into gifts. This is why I was so drawn to the Gene Keys perspective on Human Design, but I’m totally with you, John. I love what you’re saying. That’s like a whole conversation right there.

John: That liberation piece, the freedom piece that you mentioned- what I hear you saying is that if we can arrive at the place of having access to these systems, tools, or techniques, but then not taking them on as a dogma, belief system, or some sort of limiting factor. In other words, we just end up building another mental prison for ourselves, is that the type of liberation that you’re describing? Is it something along those lines?

Rosy: Very much so. The other thing I’ve learned is that everything can be turned into another conditioning source, even something like Human Design, which was created to help us out, can have that prison. I’ve seen myself do it, I’ve seen so many people do that. That’s why there’s another goal than just getting someone to follow their strategy and authority. It has to do with encouraging them to have a loving permission, giving an experimental relationship with their Design, where they’re not boxing themselves in, in the name of freedom. I’ve just seen it happen so much. It makes me so sad when I see that happen because I know that the genuine impulse that draws people to the system is a desire to truly live an authentic life.

Not everybody is meant to get into Human Design to the extent that maybe three of us have, some people don’t need much at all. They just need a little bit and that’s enough to completely freeze them. If they can really live with it, try it, learn from all of it, and learn from the mistakes. I like to say to people, “Just follow your conditioning like crazy for a week. Be your Not-Self. Fall out and see what happens.” Sometimes we realize, “Oh God, this is horrible,” but sometimes we realize, like in the Yin-Yang Sun, there’s a little black and a little white. Sometimes, for me, it’d be like push the river for a week, just push it.

From the Human Design perspective, I would expect that it would just be a frickin’ disaster. Every once in a while, I push through something, and it’s actually good for me. Maybe I’ll make myself go dancing, even though I don’t feel it’s a genuine response, and then I start to learn to discern between response and resistance. Fear, sometimes fear can look or feel like a response, like a genuine “No” may not be a genuine “No”, it may be a protective strategy. Sometimes a yes might be an addiction. These are the kinds of things that I’m very interested in.

John: I just have to say, I can just feel your Design and frequency coming through so clearly in all of this. It’s really beautiful to receive.

Amy: I love what you’re saying too. It does seem like a trap that a lot of people get into with Human Design and with all kinds of systems where we try to do the system right or do our Design right. It just becomes some kind of morality that’s actually very imprisoning and then we’re using it as another thing to judge ourselves with or to make ourselves wrong with. I can feel it in what John is saying, there’s something that just exudes from you that feels very creative and experimental. That, in and of itself, to me feels very liberating.

I’ve found myself, in working with people over time, getting to that point as well of just wanting to say, “Go fuck it up, go do it all wrong and see what happens,” or, “Go be pissed at the system. Decide it’s a bunch of junk, do something else, and see how that goes.” Use it all, just use it all as an exploration and see what you find out. I love what you’re naming too, about these fine pieces surrounding, “What is the difference between fear and response? What is a true ‘Yes’ versus a compulsive ‘Yes’? What is a true ‘No’ versus an anxiety or a conditioned restriction on ourselves?”

I don’t think anybody can really discover that unless they play with it for themselves. I can’t tell somebody else what a real ‘No’ is for you. You can’t read enough Human Design books or anything in any system, or sit with a teacher enough for them to be able to clarify that for you. You’ve just got to go live it and find out. Then, you’ll know what a real ‘Yes’ is for you. You’ll know what a compulsive ‘Yes’ feels like and that you have to play with it to find out. It’s a discovery process.

Rosy: Absolutely. Also, I was just thinking when you said that, you’re both so good at reflecting back on what you’re hearing and adding to it, interviewing. First, there’s a discerning right about addiction versus ‘Yes’ or compulsion, but then there’s also the learning, which I think Ra really communicated very well. I really love that when you’re aligned, the result doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter if it ends up being a success or not. That’s not the way we judge whether it was an authentic response or a healthy invitation to receive, or the right environment for us, or whatever. It’s not about what it looks like on the outside. You can have a really healthy ‘Yes’ and it can lead to a total debacle, but it will be the correct debacle for you. There’s an incredible freedom in that. That was one of the best gifts I ever got from Human Design, that realization.

We’re removing layer upon layer upon layer of the mind, the judging mind. It’s like just removing more and more ways in which we judge reality, or judge our lives, or the trajectory of our lives. It reminds me of that story of the villager with the horse. The horse calms, I don’t have to get into it. I know that the people who are listening know it. Anyway, the whole point is that we don’t know. We can’t judge by the outcome of any particular decision, whether it was actually the best one or the ideal one or not.

There’s some reverence we have to have towards the unfolding mystery of life. If we just kind of tune in enough to what feels natural and authentic inside of us, we’re going to be okay. We will be led down a crazy journey that will ultimately give us the correct struggles, but they won’t necessarily remove struggle. It’s not about getting rid of struggles, and maybe that’s something I learned because I got the Channel of struggle. I might as well just get really good at making sure I have the right ones for me instead of trying to remove them. What’s the point? Why incarnate on Planet Earth, especially in these times?

John: The way you describe the right ‘Yes’, brings to mind that 29 again. Not having that 46, finding that right ‘Yes’, that right thing to commit to is enough. It doesn’t matter what happens or where the experiment goes.

Rosy: Oh, God bless, I’ve got to remember that one. It’s so funny, it doesn’t matter how long you’re in this, there’s always something new to kind of integrate and remind oneself. It’s not even like I’m living my life from my mind anymore. I don’t think I’d make any really big decisions from a mental perspective, I don’t think I really do that much, but boy can I overcommit. That’s just something that I really think is going to be a lifetime of learning for me. So often, I commit to things that I love, people I love, and projects that mean so much to me that I think are completely aligned with my nature and my creative force, and I just don’t have the bandwidth to follow it through which my Defined-Ego heart needs to do. It needs to do it.

I put my heart under so much pressure, which is why I have these occasional total full-body breakdowns. I’ve really only had them twice in my life, but they were pretty heavy-handed. You know what? Thank God it happened because I wouldn’t be living in Santa Fe if it didn’t happen the first time. Wonderful changes happen because of breakdowns that come from us not fully living in alignment with who we are. Again, everything can be folded back into this purpose, this perfection, even when it looks bad and wrong, and all those kinds of things.

The responsibility is about responding, it’s about having the ability to respond to whatever it is that comes out of each of our decisions. In a way, it’s this never-ending flow. It’s never too late to make the most of a mess, to get the most out of it. It’s never too late to do that. I almost feel like that’s an even more important lesson for us to learn as humans than getting any system right. We’re constantly being given lemons in order to make them- these are so cliche, but that’s what the wisdom keepers are about. I think that’s what the Gene Keys really kind of hones in on, leaning into suffering and allowing something beautiful to grow out of that. Trusting in those dark, horrible places where the mind is only going to judge them as wrong; trusting that there’s a seed of potential, of beauty, and of possibility inside of them if we allow ourselves to be open to that possibility.

Amy: You’re already starting to go there. There are a million things I think we could talk about, in terms of Human Design and Gene Keys. Maybe I can start with this specific piece and then we can go wherever. We’ve been talking lately about how when you look at Human Design, and the way it’s taught, there’s all of this emphasis on the mechanics. There’s all of this emphasis on Strategy and Authority. If you just follow your Strategy and Authority, in some ways, it’s almost very action-oriented. If you experiment and engage with your Strategy and Authority, that’s going to bring you some deconditioning. It’s going to bring you some realizations and a greater awareness and alignment with what’s natural to you. Then, we look at Gene Keys, and I’d love to hear in part about that movement for you, from Human Design to Gene Keys.

Specifically, I’m really curious about this concept of contemplation because Gene Keys seems to have this very big focus on contemplation. In some ways, it’s kind of completely let go of the mechanics, the Type, and the following of any of that and it came into this realm of contemplation. So, can you speak a little bit about what that term is in Gene Keys and maybe weave in your transition from one to the other or your synthesis of both?

Rosy: My open mind is like, “Oh, okay.” So, I guess one thing I can say is that it was through following my Design that I was led to the Gene Keys. Right. For me, Human Design is the most practical and empowering system. It’s a spiritual practice of decision-making. I really feel like it has the potential to be a spiritual practice. Sometimes it leads to action. Sometimes it leads to inaction. Yes, but the decision point is still an action. It’s internally taking a stand which is different than this kind of- I can see where you’re going, but the contemplation is kind of fluid. You just sit and just percolate on things. It’s not so much about, “What are you going to do? What are you going to do with your life?”

Before I go into that, I just want to acknowledge that something called Integral Human Design does exist, where they’re bridging the Design together with the change. Basically, you still have the Strategy and Authority, although it may be held a little bit more lightly, a little more trans-personally, where you don’t want to confuse the map with the territory. They are bringing a lot of the aspects of Human Design together with these concepts of the Gene Keys, which includes the spectrum of consciousness. That is where we’re not just looking at the Body Graph as a two-dimensional thing, but we’re adding three dimensions. We’re looking at it from how it gets expressed when we’re coming from a fearful place. What would be a fearful response, which might be repressive or reactive?

Then, you look at it from the gift perspective, what a Body Graph looks like when we’re coming from a place of wanting to be of service. Using our gifts in order to be of service and with the Body Graph, how it would express itself when we’re coming from a kind of total Ego-Death perspective, where we’re dissolving into the one. Each particular thing has different flavors of that- I don’t know there’s so many different words for God or whatever, but that kind of divine state, they’re all kind of addressing that.

From a Gene Keys perspective or Integral Human Design perspective, it’s not like you’re either coming from fear or shadow, or you’re coming from the gift. It’s not like that, it’s a dance. It’s fluid, one thing leads to another and it can all be happening simultaneously. It’s not even a three-phase thing. It’s just something that makes it a little easier, just like all models do, but they’re all limited. It does include a lot of Human Design’s more practical concepts, in terms of how some people respond, how some people are here to be invited, that kind of stuff. I did want to just kind of say that that’s in there.

When we’re talking about the Gene Keys and Richard- again, I think of Human Design and I think of empowerment. When I think of Gene Keys, I think of compassion. I think of the kind of healing that happens when you’re not judging anything, or fighting anything, but you’re kind of surrendering to whatever it is. You’re taking a pause in order to be with whatever is arising without acting in one way or the other in the beginning. Then, you’re allowing kind of an internal alchemy to take place, which then allows for an organic action to come out from you that isn’t coming from following some kind of a recipe. It doesn’t mean that action won’t come out of that, it just won’t be a reaction.

He, Richard, talks a lot about how if you’re contemplating, you take a pause. If you really kind of allow and embrace what’s happening, it can inspire a pivot. He talks about pivoting. He does this so much better than I would do, but for me, there’s something in the pivot that feels connected to making a new decision. Now, one thing that Gene Keys does, which I appreciate, is that you can get into it without having your absolutely perfect birth data. It’s much more accessible to people in that way. It’s open to all people regardless of whether they really know what their Design is. That’s one of the limitations of Human Design because time makes a huge difference in a person’s design.

I think that was a part of Richard’s own- he speaks about all this stuff himself, but a part of his own evolution had to do with moving away from numbers. There’s that potential shadow of getting too attached to numbers, and Channels, to where the identity can merge, to moving towards archetypes that apply to everyone kind of moving into universal waters.

If you look deep enough into the eyes of God, you’ll find the devil; if you look deep enough into the eyes of the devil, you’ll find God. If you go deep enough into any one Gene Key and have a genuine Satori, it will change your life, it will change your trajectory. It will align you, and this is kind of interesting too, in the Gene Keys, he talks a lot about how in the end, it’s about aligning with the heart. Not the Human Design heart, but the heart of a human being that is in unity with all of the cosmos. When we’re really coming from this self-embracing, other-allowing, loving, compassionate place, we automatically get this chiropractic adjustment of the soul and become aligned with the cosmic order. That will guide us no matter what. I don’t know if I’m answering your question. Am I touching on it?

Amy: I think you’re getting to it. It’s actually making me think of some Human Design teachers I’ve seen out there like Genoa Bliven seem to really do this well. Even the way that if you get some really good books on teaching, the way they’ll guide you. A lot of those have a directive in there to pick one of these frequencies, pick one of these Gates, one of these Gene Keys, and sit with it. Contemplate it, take it in as a prompt, a cone, or something. If you let it permeate you, and then you let yourself in a creative way or in a receptive way explore it, you’ll probably find your own wisdom in it, and you’ll find your own interpretation of it. You’ll find what it touches in you and in your own life.

I guess I’m curious about, in terms of directing people or working with people, how do you tell someone to contemplate something? What does that practice? It seems to me like for you, some part of that is a very creative and maybe even artistic, expressive process. I guess I’m curious about how we make contemplation practical. How do we guide people in how to have that experience? I imagine that some people probably feel like, “Well, what does that even mean? I’m just sitting here by myself, I have this book with these words.” What does contemplation mean?

Rosy: There was one thing I just wanted to add to the contemplation is that when you’re really contemplating, he talks about it as being like in between meditating, and concentrating. It’s not concentrating, you’re not applying a lot of mental effort, you’re dropping a little bit beneath that. There might be thoughts that are walking through, but it’s a little deeper than that, where it can actually be an embodied experience. It doesn’t just have to be an intellectual experience. I just wanted to add that to the piece. Again, you should have Richard Rudd on here because he can do so much more justice to this than me. We are unique vessels.

The way that I might support someone to contemplate is going to be so different from someone else. I’m always interested in the non-mental. I’m always interested in, “How can we get past the brain and explore this from another perspective?” There’s a bit of a controversy in the Gene Keys world about whether one should even be giving readings or not. What does it mean to give a reading I think for Richard, it’s more about you holding space for someone to kind of discover for themselves what these terms and Archetypes mean. You don’t say, “Oh, well, you have this, and you have this, and this is what it means.” Although, I have a feeling a lot of people are giving readings, and a lot more people will be giving readings.

That’s where someone like me comes in. I know it doesn’t work to tell people, “Here’s this incredible system, don’t give readings.” They’re going to do it. That’s about, “Okay, as long as they’re going to do it, how can we support them and do it in ways that honor the sovereignty of that being and their own kind of unique, creative way of connecting with this information?” This is also why Richard doesn’t even call this a system, he calls it a transmission because it’s not a method. It’s not like a very specific map. It’s a portal that opens people up to their own imaginal cells that then can build in their chrysalis their own perfect kind of butterfly. I just wanted to say that too.

If I were going to work with someone with a Gene Keys- I used to do this, and I don’t give readings anymore, I just don’t do it. You give people readings for me! Best gift I ever had in my life. One thing might be finding alternative ways to get people to connect with these words. The word will have a frequency but it’ll have different associations for different people. I could even have someone say, “Well, I have this whole big box of images of postcards,” and I might say, “Okay, let’s take the word ‘Oppression’. Pick four pictures that, for you, have a flavor of oppression in them. Now just tell me what comes up for you when you look at these pictures. When you pick them don’t think so much about it. Let some other part of you pick those pictures.” I’m just giving you a super simple example. You can also say, “Let’s do an oppression dance.”

What I learned from my work as not just an expressive artist, but also as a drama therapist is that insight often comes through the action. This is why we like Human Design, but also why it can be nice to bring in some action and embodiment into things like the Gene Keys so that people can start to really feel it in their bodies. For example, I taught a workshop at a place in Sonoma, California with this really lovely man from the Center for Spiritual Living. Together, we co-led a workshop that was kind of based on the Wisdom Keepers where we did shadow work together. We kind of used the wisdom keepers to inspire shadow work. Part of that had to do with embodying the shadow.

What happens when we embody the shadow is often so surprising. People are expecting to feel like, “Oh, this is gonna be awful. This is the last thing I want to own or embody.” Then, they feel so free. For me to embody the shadow of selfishness. I cannot think of anything more fun in a playful, safe environment. If I take it on the road, that’s a different situation. I think when you engage with something in a non-mental, non-verbal way, it gives you the opportunity to access deeper layers of what these archetypes mean for you. That’s just sort of my kind of thing. Not everybody would do that.

Even just having a conversation with someone, let’s say I have one of my big shadows in my Activation Sequence or Incarnation Cross that has to do with dominance. If someone were to say, “Oh, well, do you relate to that as a shadow?” I’d be like, “Are you freaking kidding me? I can’t think of anything more forbidden in my life than to be dominating over another human being.” Bingo. That’s why it’s a shadow. What is forbidden is our shadow. So they would say, “Oh, okay, so it’s been forbidden for you?” Well, let’s look at that, what would have happened if you had expressed more dominance? As I moved through that experience, I started to realize, “What are ways that I actually am dominating,” or “What are ways that I actually am arrogant.” The fact that I don’t want to ever be arrogant is actually pretty arrogant if you think about it.

We start to play with the words. “Well, I don’t relate to that.” “What word might you relate to?” “I relate to this one.” “Okay, good. Let’s go there.” You’re following the person’s own psyche and it’s almost like an alliteration process or something where you’re just kind of following the stream of the unconscious and modalities that feels fun, if that’s in alignment with yourself. You kind of go into the portal and you open up, and then suddenly come epiphanies, inspirations, or gut feelings. It’s like, “Holy shit, I’m going to change my life.” Big things can come out of it. It’s a different process, I need both. That’s why I’ve done what I’ve done. I’m not like, “That substitutes what Human Design offers.” I don’t think it does, but I think it offers something Human Design doesn’t.

For me, perfection happens through the synthesis of the two, but not for everybody. Some people don’t need the Gene Keys. Some people don’t need Human Design. One last thing I’m going to say, and I’ll shut up is that, the Gene Keys does- I mean, they are rolling out so many programs and all kinds of things where people are being guided through processes. There is sharing, teachings, and interaction. I think that there’s going to be more and more of that. People will get guidance about how to work with it. That’s already happening, but it’s different.

Amy: I love what you’re saying. I think it’s easy to look at a word like contemplation or a directive like that and it can seem like a solitary process. I know that’s where, for me, given my Design, I would tend to take it. You’re describing all of these possible ways to contemplate that actually involve being supported by another person being witnessed, potentially, by another person, having an encouraging empowering other there who’s saying, “Just go ahead and play with it,” or, “Here, try this.” I feel like you’re being a beacon of the most inspired Third-Line experience I think I’ve ever had. I am loving it so much. I think you’re pointing at something that feels not only creative but supportive. You don’t have to do it alone. There is something that comes across in Human Design that can feel very solitary. It can feel like and even in Ra’s presentation of things like he was such a loner.

Rosy: Depressed Buddhist.

Amy: The cranky heretic. I just really love what you’re bringing to that because it might be a very solitary process. It might be natural for some people to have it mostly be a solitary process. I think it’s beautiful to see that you can use these systems in ways that can be very creative. It’s certainly the business that we’re all in here. It’s a way that we can come together, support each other, and experiment together. All the things you named about contemplation were non-solitary activities. I just think it’s beautiful.

Rosy: Let me just say one thing, we are now engaged in a co-contemplative process. You’re asking me questions and it’s getting me to go places I never thought about. I didn’t think I’d be sharing anything that I’m sharing today. It’s because of the synergy between us that I’m going places I wouldn’t normally go and maybe some things I’m offering are allowing you to go places you wouldn’t go. This is contemplation and action in a trinity. I will say that Richard is a Line One. He’s got a lot of Line One, so if it were up to him, this would be a very deep inner-contemplative process and it would be very individual.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Star Pearl in the Gene Keys, which is a whole other thing where you’re looking at your branding, relating, creativity, where you are in culture, your vocation, and all these kinds of things. There are different lines and these can point to the role you play inside of a group or a culture. It could play a role, for example, in relating. I have a Line Two, so I’m all about the relationship. I’m going to find ways to explore whatever I want to explore in a relational context. That is not for everybody, but it is for me. I love that, I love that the Gene Keys looks at that.

I know Human Design does too with the business model and stuff like that, but I love when we start looking at groups of people coming together, each one being totally real. It’s like creating something so much more wonderful than they ever could create on their own. I’m really interested in that. I love the way in which Richard is distilling some of that information, and the love and hope that he brings with his vision. It feels very soothing for my soul, especially during these times. I talked about this too, that in the end, we’re in this kind of transmutation. We’re going through this as a species. In the end, we’re not going to be these individuals, we’re going to be group entities moving through space.

The fractal is going to start to really, really work. In order for that to happen, we’ve got to do that individuation process and that differentiation process so that we’re nice and aligned, and peaking signals. We need our signals to be clear and other people need to have their receptors clear. It’s how we hook up with each other. Eventually, it’s not going to be about me, me, me. Eventually, it’s going to be about the we. What letting my whole Design blossom was about is how to reconcile the me and the we.

I feel that Human Design is very much about, “Let’s get this ‘Me’ thing in order.” That can have a shadow as well, sometimes people are like, “The whole thing is a joke, and I don’t care, I’m just gonna do what’s right for me. Let all the cities burn.” That could be an interpretation. “As long as I’m doing it correctly, who cares?” It doesn’t have to necessarily be a very compassionate approach, although I know deep down it is. It can be, also. Oh, my God, you guys, I have been talking so much. Do you know what this is? This is like Projector Heaven for me.

John: Oh good, I’ve got more questions I’m holding back.

Amy: I know, I can feel it. I’m like, “I gotta let John get in there.”

John: I have to say, I don’t want to change the subject too much, but you did mention the dominance theme earlier. You drew the intuition card when we started and my intuition keeps going back to your 45, your Cross of Rulership, and the 45/21. One of the things I know about that channel, or that I understand about that channel, is that it can be an interesting channel for an individual to have themselves. It generally works better as an electromagnetic. It’s one of the things that’s said that Ra talked about. I’m very curious about what your experience is as a 45/21, but also the rulership aspect of the activation sequence and the cross. What does that look like for you? What is your experience of that?

Rosy: You have no idea. Okay, it’s all unconscious. What do I know? When I first learned about my Design, one of the biggest moments of laughter for me was when I learned that I had that channel. That’s what I loved about Human Design, too. I was so surprised by different things. I think maybe because of my conditioning to be such a caretaker, go with other people’s flow, and do everything in my power not to make anyone ever feel uncomfortable, to dominate them, or to misuse power, and my sensitivity about misuses of power.

Having a mother who was a very strong-willed, very fiery woman, and a sister who was very fiery as well as- this is an example of how it took me time to realize that was actually a part of my nature. That was like, “Whoa, I would never ever have thought that I had a strong healthy Will, a Defined Ego. and the capacity to kind of make money or play some kind of a leadership role inside of a community, and everything about leadership. Again, it’s 3/5, it’s in the unconscious, the five part like being a leader. That’s another thing that I’ve had to slowly get comfortable with, that concept. I think the three helped me realize, “Oh, there are a lot of ways of being a leader.” You can be a leader by being free, just daring to be real, or being an emotional leader, crying, like in most interviews that I do.

There are many ways of doing that. I think that helped me slowly make peace with this part of myself. John, if I’m really honest with you, I feel almost like I’m just starting to make peace with it. Even now, I’m allowing myself to dominate this conversation like nobody’s business. I talk because I’m a listener. I’m a listener, I spend my whole life listening to people, reflecting them, being like a clear mirror with an open G Center with nothing in it. The open mind, let’s hear what other people have to say. Open Solar Plexus, constantly metabolizing the emotional field. Being the one who actually allows something to come through me and trust that it could be an act of service, and not just dominant control. I am dominating the conversation, this is a big edge for me.

Interestingly, it’s the Channel of the Materialist. Then, I had the Channel of Struggle. So, I have been a struggling materialist. The 3/5 journey has pushed me into becoming an entrepreneur, which I never would have thought, but I’ve also only held a nine-to-five job for maybe six months of my life. I’ve always been self-employed. That’s an example of that Channel. Definitely, like, “Oh, I want to be in charge,” but more like, “I don’t know what else I could do. What do I feel called to do?” I guess I would have figured it out myself and then I kind of had to learn how to make money doing this. That means marketing. That means telling the world who I am and what I believe in and stepping into leadership. Being visible.

This has been the hardest thing in my life. My biggest Conditioning message was, “Do not shine, no matter what, do not shine. It hurts the people that you love, nothing good can come of it.” That was the main message. Being forced by my nature, my ruthless attachment, and my fierce attachment to authenticity, into the entrepreneurial world, I have had to become visible. I had to step out into the world, into that projection field, which still makes me nauseous every time. It’s actually been one of the best gifts of all that I’ve had, it’s kept me on my growth edge. I’m starting to feel after all these years of putting myself out there, in spite of my nausea, with just like, “Oh my god, I would so rather hide. My environment is the cave, just put me back in the cave. Let me stay in the cave.” This actually is helping me understand that there are many ways to be of service.

I can be in charge as a sovereign being. That’s really what it means. It’s like a sovereign being as a hub inside of a group of rebels. The people who are drawn to me are not conventional people. They’re nice people, but they’re not conventional people. Having my job be supporting them and trusting their own natural impulse and knowing that my voice is not here to oppress them, but is actually here to uplift and liberate them. Mostly, I do that by embodying liberation, not by telling people what to do, which is why I keep throwing out all my degrees. I don’t want to be the person telling people what to do, but I will be the person to ask them questions that will help them find out what they need to do to be in alignment with themselves. Did I answer your question? I feel like I danced around it a lot. Honestly, I have no idea how to relate to this one.

Amy: I have to jump in, I’m sorry John. I was going to let you have it, but I’ll give up after this. It’s very synchronistic to me that you’re saying this. I’ve been looking at this theme of dominance. I don’t necessarily have it in my chart, but I’m having the experience in this conversation with you, of it being such a gift for you to dominate the conversation, and to share what you have to say. Somehow when you were talking, I just kept thinking, “Well, what would the world be like if the sun didn’t dominate us?” Not from a place of being the expert or telling people what to do, but whether you call it the embodiment of liberation, or just the energy, the creative energy that lives in you, or your fierce connection to what you believe in and what you love.

The energy itself to me feels very dominating in a way that’s like, “Please dominate me with that energy.” Look at all the crap that’s out in the world. We’re all getting dominated by all of the stuff we’re being fed. If anybody’s going to dominate anything, the feeling that I get in the moment is like, “Please let it be Rosy.” Please dominate us because there are a lot of things out there that I would prefer not to take in, if I were going to surrender to or drink in or be receptive to a power, let it be you. That’s what I feel from this experience.

John: It’s a frequency thing. If you’re grounded in yourself, your own frequency, and you being you, then the dominance is not going to feel necessarily oppressive or too much for the other person. It’s not going to not taste good or be something they don’t want to take. There’s a certain cleanliness, purity, or something coming through the individual that’s either shared in a supportive way or as an act of service. That’s a totally different experience than a lot of what we are taking in on a regular basis.

Rosy: Thank you, thank you both. You can’t get the gift version of dominance. I think it’s synergy and then, ultimately, communion. I feel like you are inviting something out of me. I don’t know, that’s allowing a certain kind of shining or a wash. It’s sort of washing through us, an energy that maybe at some level we all share. In the end, right now, it’s my turn to talk. You said, “Oh, let’s interview Rosy.” I’ll talk, but we could literally be sitting in the same situation and I could be asking you questions and a thing in your frequency. Maybe that’s ultimately what we need too. This dance, if we know that our intention is for everyone to shine at different times in different ways. Sometimes we’re receiving and sometimes we’re transmitting. In the end, it kind of evens out, then maybe it’s not so scary when it’s our turn.

I think I was so afraid that it would never even out, if I took too much space, then it would just kind of leave this giant deficit. I think it was a part of the conditioning that I got there. I hesitated to ever do it. Actually, you’re helping me understand that sometimes, if I let myself do it, who knows, maybe after this conversation, because you’ve had to listen, you’re going to dominate your next conversations in a whole new way. You’re going to give yourself more permission. I kind of am a little envious of the people that get to listen to you. Just on the receiving end of this, I think they’re going to be very lucky people to hear how this is metabolized and joined together with your own genius. I know you both have a ton of that, and even though that hasn’t been the focus of this particular conversation, me drawing that out. Although Amy, I know you well enough to know your genius pretty well. I can feel your stuff.

John: Can I ask you one more question about your Cross and the 45?

Rosy: Yeah, give it a shot. All right.

John: Is there a connection between that and your place in New Mexico or where you’re at now? I don’t know much about it, but Amy said that you’re living in New Mexico, or maybe an artist community or something. Is that connected to this 45 dominance, this 45/21 rulership theme that we’re looking at?

Rosy: I’m sure it is. I have a feeling I’m still getting to find out how it’s connected. I would say, we didn’t really talk so much about when I got into Human Design, but one of the simple thematic invitations that I got was to sort of see that I had this super individualistic stream, and then a very tribal aspect of my Design. These two parts of me have always been a bit at odds. The communal part is always wanting to give and take and be a part of things. I’m like a magnet for communities. My artist self was like, “All I want to do is disappear into my cave despite all my own truth and to not be responsible for everyone while I’m accumulating responsibilities.” This has been sort of an ongoing theme in my life.

So, I live in not an artist’s community, although there are many artists here, but it’s a co-housing community. It’s interesting. Some people here know about Human Design, which is really cool. There are a lot of people in New Mexico including Genoa and La Sita who I totally love. They’re also in New Mexico. I’m sure that I was guided here energetically because there’s some kind of a fractal thing. Maybe I’m supposed to play a bridging role between the various communities, between Genoa and Richard Rudd, or whatever it is. I like to talk about them kind of like Freud and Jung. They’re so connected and there’s stuff there. Anyway, I do feel that there’s a role for me to play here.

In addition to that, when I think about my whole activation sequence, and my purpose being the 26 Line 5, which in Gene Keys terms has to do with artfulness, there’s something about the energy of New Mexico that reminds me so much of you, Amy, as I imagined you now. That feels so connected to the Earth and the animal kingdom and artistry. The artists here are just crazy good. I got invited by Richard several years ago, but now, we’re finally working on it. To work on this dream arc aspect of the transmission, which is all about Indigenous wisdom. It’s about animal totems. Here I am, as soon as I walked into the Albuquerque airport, for the first time in my life, there were these animal totems. It was like ravens and foxes and donkeys and it was crazy.

I feel spiritually guided to this place. The way that we got here was very surprising, maybe there’s some kind of communion or some hub-like communal role that I’m meant to be here for that is beyond my co-housing community. It may have something to do with the various communities I have around the world, including the Universal Love Alliance. I don’t know if you know about these people in Uganda that I’ve been working with, that was another thing that brought me here. I’m involved in this human rights organization in Uganda, where these people are just unbelievable. Basically, what they do is they teach about inclusion and diversity to religious leaders, faith leaders, cultural leaders, and political leaders, in the most unfriendly, dangerous environment you can possibly imagine. These are people that, like in the Gene Keys, they talk about returning non-love with love. That’s what they do on a daily basis. They talk to people who basically want them executed for being who they are and they find ways to love them, dialogue with them, and help open their minds and hearts.

I found these people. I don’t know if you know I did this: The ‘Face of Love is Universal’ video campaign a while back. I had people all over the world hold up the wisdom keeper and say, “The face of love is universal,” in different languages. They were my very first volunteers, these people from Uganda. This is where fractals come in. It turns out that several of the people on the board with me live in Santa Fe. Santa Fe was never on my radar as a potential place to go. Again, it’s another way in which I feel this tribal- the pull of the artfulness, the communion, the synergy, and all of that stuff. I feel the healing of oppression is all kind of coming together in this particular area. I’m in the process of uncovering how I will be changed by this environment with my open G Center in such a way that I am better able to serve from this place, whoever I’m meant to serve.

Another really wild fractal thing then I’ll shut up, I had a webinar recently, where I did a collective transformation spread using the wisdom keepers. At the end of it, I shared a performance done by the Living Arts Playback Theater in the Bay Area, where they did a spontaneous improvisational piece around one of the wisdom papers of compassion and humanity. I just found out today that my Bulgarian resellers know everybody who played in that theater. I mean, things are happening all the time like this. People are finding each other in the craziest ways and I’m sure I’m meant to be here. We will find out why over time.

Amy: I have the sense that the way you work with people sort of shifts around in terms of your availability and which aspect of your work you’re more focused on, but I’m curious about what your availability is. I guess right now or what your focus is for work. Maybe you’re resting and you’re taking a break for a while. I don’t know, but I am curious about how people can get their hands on you or get some access to your things if they want.

Rosy: That is a very good question. Again, this is where trusting in my intuitive gut has really come in handy. I’ve had to make very difficult choices like leaving the Bay Area, and saying goodbye to all my clients. It was so hard and shifting marked the direction of my work away from counseling practice into art projects and writing. I’ve been doing a ton of writing, and I created an online school. Now what I’m trying to do is more online classes. I just created the school for wisdom keepers. That’s one way, there are self-study classes right now. Eventually, I’m going to probably get over myself and over my shyness again.

This is where it’s hard to know, where is it just my shyness and introversion or when is it a ‘No’. I mean, sometimes it’s hard to know. Sometimes we have to remove the pressure to find out. I’ve removed some pressure from myself this past year. Now, I’m finding out, “Okay, maybe I can say yes to the physicals, nervousness, and discomfort of doing live training. Maybe that is the right kind of discomfort for me.” It took me a while to get to that place. I will probably be taking some people through. I have an online course called ‘Walking a Fine Line’. I’ve made a course out of the book, which has to do with working with it, just being in integrity, whether we’re wisdom seekers or wisdom keepers. We’ve worked professionally with other people. Then, I created my first class based on the Wisdom Keepers Oracle deck, which is called The Wisdom Wheel of Integrity, which I’m super excited about. I also have a book that I haven’t gotten around to publishing it yet, but it’s ready.

Amy: Wow.

Rosy: I do have the online class, so that’s a really fun way for people to really integrate the wisdom papers into their lives. They’re really kind of struggling with what’s happening in the world and wanting to find a way to be a sacred activist that also honors their own unique path, voice, and way of expressing themselves in the world. I think that might be a really interesting class for them. I’m only seeing old clients when they call me in great need. When they’re like, “Rosie, I just totally need a checkup.” I’m like, “Alright, come on, that’s fine,” but I’m not seeing new clients right now. I’m not giving readings.

I highly recommend to the people listening who may not know about John and Amy, you can learn more about them. If you look at the information in this particular podcast descriptor, they’re wonderful, I recommend them 1,000%.

That may change, but right now that’s kind of- then, I’m working on the dream arc, which is this huge project I’m doing with Richard Rudd. I have so many classes that I’ve created curriculum for, I just haven’t produced them yet in terms of the video teaching, the illustrating, the exercises, and stuff like that. It’s that 29 out of control. It’s also my nature, so I just had to kind of rein it in a little bit. It’s been really nice to have a period of time where I could focus more on what wants to come in and out of me, as opposed to 30 years of listening and only letting things come out. If they were reflecting something coming towards me, it’s a very different orientation. It’s a good one for me to sink my teeth and heart into for a while.

Amy: I just love it. I feel really inspired by you in general, and just the creativity flowing from you is so visceral. It’s really palpable and wonderful to be around. I feel very excited at this point in your life with everything you’ve created. Even if people aren’t interacting with you one-on-one, there’s so much that you’ve put out there, that you’ve poured yourself into, that people can have access to and learn from and explore. So, thanks for being here with us.

Rosy: I just wanted to add, I don’t know if people know this, but I do also offer a Design to Blossom course. It’s an online course in Human Design, integrating the Gene Keys. There’s a book for that. I also created a resource book, where I answer a lot of these tricky questions that come up inside the Human Design community, like “What’s the difference between a genuine response and addiction,” or, “When is Human Design not enough,” or, “Where does therapy come in?” It answers all of those kinds of questions and it’s looking for different perspectives on Strategy and Authority because we have so many different voices in our community around that, like some controversial stuff. So, that’s something that is really easy to get on Amazon. It’s the Design to Blossom Resource Book for people who are already into Human Design, but kind of want to get into some of those nitty-gritty territories. I just wanted people to know about that too.

Amy: Thank you. That’s awesome. What a fabulous synthesizer you are. We’ll probably ask you to come back another time if you’re willing to because I know I think we both have a lot more we would love to talk about with you. So, we’ll see, thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure.

Rosy: It’s been a total honor, so much love and gratitude to you both. Truly, thank you for bathing me in your listening presence, and your wisdom.

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