Interview with Maria Mateus on the Structure and Language of Astrological Systems, the Program, and Game Theory


Published 05/03/2020

Amy: Are there universal underlying mechanics that structure our life experiences? Are there rules to the game of life and how we play it? Where does our internal experience meet with certain inevitabilities set in motion at the time of our birth? Today, we’re exploring these questions with Maria Mateus, a professional astrologer and teacher who has been immersed in the field of astrology for almost 40 years now. She has an undergraduate degree in Psychology, and a master’s in Astrology from Kepler College, recognized by the state of Washington.

John: Hey, this is John Cole and Amy Lee. We’re sitting here with Maria Mateus. Maria is a dear friend of mine, I think we’ve known each other for about 15 plus years. We met in Austin, back at a local astrology meeting, and realized that we had some similar interest in how we were working and approaching astrology. I soon found out that Maria was a wealth and depth of knowledge and experience. She’s been something of a personal mentor to me. So, I’m really pleased to have you here today, Maria.

Maria: I’m excited to be here and I’m looking forward to stimulating conversation because they usually turn out that way.

John: We were just kind of joking before we started about when Maria and I get together and talk astrology and world events, the conversations are usually pretty interesting. I often walk away wishing I had recorded some of it. Maybe we’ll have a bit of that today. To start, could you just give us kind of an overview of how you came to astrology, and what really grabbed you or drew your attention to studying it?

Maria: I come from a family of mediums on my mother’s side. We lived in Portugal at the time, and my mother had these books that were channeled, supposedly by the spirit guide, my father’s spirit guide. This was news to him because he didn’t believe in any of that stuff. I used to read those books; they were the only books my mom had. They talked about the esoteric world, and the metaphysical world, and I used to read those when I was in my teens, and they talked a lot about astrology. I got a sense of how important it was it was to life, not just for individuals, but to life in general. They were talking about some really big global concepts in those books, about the state of the world, and all this stuff. I wanted to know more about it because they didn’t really go into detail about what astrology was like. I had heard about astrology, but it was always like a kind of entertainment for people. It was not a serious thing, the way that it was talked about in common society. Those books, I think were the spark that lit my interest.

When I left Portugal for the first time, I went to England, and I used to go to metaphysical bookstores. In Portugal, there weren’t that many, but in England, I found the mother lode of all metaphysical stores, and I just started devouring books on astrology. For some reason, that was the one thing in those books that really sparked my interest. The whole channeling stuff that my family was into was interesting, too, but I had been exposed to that from early on. It wasn’t new. The books were talking about you, but it was coming from outside of you. How do the cosmos know anything about me? How does that actually work? It’s so bizarre, the whole concept of it. I wanted to know; that’s what really got me going. How did the planets have anything to do with me whatsoever?

John: Do you have clarity on that now?

Maria: A little bit better than I did back then, I hope. If not, that would be a lot of wasted time. Almost all the questions that I’ve been asked about astrology inevitably go back to that, how does it actually work? What is the point of it all? I do have a little bit more clarity, hopefully.

John: Can you describe how you see things now in terms of our relationship with the planets? Is it is it a question of influence, synchronicity, or something else?

Maria: All those things. One of the huge revelations to me, after so many years of looking into that question, is how I started looking at astrology itself. Not its output, but astrology itself. How do we get information from it? My educational background is in psychology and knowing how notoriously unreliable our self-perceptions are. I wanted to look at astrology differently. I didn’t want to look at self-perceptions. I didn’t want to look at personality, character, that kind of thing. I wanted to externalize astrology and look at astrology from the outside. I think doing it that way, and looking at it that way, has made astrology clear to me. I can see that level of detail about what it is in itself, and how we are basically participating in something greater than us. I like the word participating, because it gives us the idea that there is something that is relating to us, to the world, and to law, not just to us. We always see it from our perspective, but it’s affecting change itself. It is a system of change. Ultimately, that’s what I think it is, it’s a system of change. If you externalize it, you can see it outside of yourself a little bit better. I like to look at it that way. I like to look at the language from that perspective.

John: You mentioned language, and I know that that’s been a big orienting factor in your work with astrology and your practice, being multilingual, having a deep understanding of language. Then, you saw something similar in astrology, seeing that it’s not just random planetary elements that happen to be floating around influencing us, but that there is kind of a structure to it. It seems to be a linguistic structure too.

Maria: I don’t know if I would say it’s a linguistic structure, but at least that model or that linguistic paradigm allows you an entrance point into it. If we look at nature, we don’t say, “Nature is chemistry.” However, chemistry is a set of tools that allows you an entrance into nature, and to perceive it in a particular way. Language is the same thing.

I go back to the Greek word logos, which has to do with language. It has to do with words, but it also has to do with mind, reason, intelligence, and structure. Language is that intelligence, that structure, that logic. My insights into this do have a lot to do with Greek philosophical thought because I was exposed to that early on in my degree at Kepler. It’s a good theoretical framework that was already there in place, that was there from the beginning. It does allow me entrance into understanding the logos of it, because language, the word logos does mean word, reason, and thought.

Heraclitus was the first one who talked about this, not about astrology, but who talked about this world-mind that he termed logos, that’s where the word originates. That language is just a really good framework for understanding astrology because it taps into whatever structure is there. There is a structure just like there’s a structure to all languages. Ultimately, that ties back to the mind, our mind, and a mind that’s outside of us that’s greater than us. I think that’s the link between the below and above. The hermetic dictum, as above so below, is the link. That is the similarity, that we have both a mind and a consciousness. It’s this reasoning faculty that is both in the world outside of us and within us.

John: Reasoning, meaning that there’s a certain logic to it or pattern or structure?

Maria: Yes. I don’t know if you’ve ever read any Chomsky. When he talks about linguistics, he talks about little kids, how they’re born, and how they know grammar without even studying it. When you’re when you learn a language, you just automatically figure out the patterns of it, you don’t need a teacher telling you grammar. By the time you get to grammar school, you learn it formally, but you’ve already got the patterns of the language figured out. That’s the thing I’m talking about. That’s the logos, we have an inherent reasoning faculty that allows us to see patterns. That ability to see patterns is what structures the world. It allows us to see it, but it’s also there in nature. Patterns are all over nature. Mathematicians and physicians will say it’s mathematical, and mathematics is another set of tools to tap into that. Chemistry is, biology is, astrology is, it’s just another set of tools that allows entrance into that logical framework that exists.

John: Could you tell us a little bit about how you’re seeing that with astrology with, say, the planets, the houses, the signs, and the structure that you’re seeing there and the relationships? I know, this is a big topic to jump into.

Maria: I approach it linguistically, just because I’m comfortable with that. When I look at a chart, there’s the researcher in me and then there’s the me that does the actual reading of the chart. I think there is a great analogy in information systems like programming. Programmers will look at the source code and try to figure out what the source code is doing. That’s me. As a researcher, I’m looking at the language trying to extract the patterns, trying to reverse engineer the language from its output, which is whatever the program puts out.

If it’s a game, let’s say our consultations are looking at the game itself. How do you navigate this game? Let’s call it a game, so we don’t call it a matrix. We’re participating in it, right? There’s this intelligent design out there, and we’re participating in it. I’m, as a researcher, looking at the source code to figure out the output and how we can navigate it better. How is this output put together? What comes out of it? How do I influence the output as a player? How am I going to play this game in the best way that I know how? When I look at the language, when I look at charts, as a researcher, I’m doing something completely different than what I do as a practitioner. I do a lot more of that now, more of the research stuff, than the practitioner stuff. It’s just more mysterious and interesting to me.

I’m trying to reverse-engineer the language. I’m looking at the output, comparing it to what I’m seeing the what the variables are contributing to that output, and trying to see the structure that repeats, just like you would in grammar. You’re trying to figure out the grammar of a language. What indicates movement? What indicates change? What indicates the things that are being changed? That’s the material side of it. I go back to this Aristotelian model of the world that’s both form and matter. I think it’s a really good model for use in astrology, and it has been used for a long time in astrology. I’m trying to piece together these things in terms of form and matter, the particularities of it. Why is it that the output can be so varied when the input is often really repeated? You have a lot of the same things repeating, and yet the output that we see, the manifestations are so different. I think that’s the creative part of it, not just like in a game. You have the same source code for everyone, but everyone plays the game differently. That’s the creative part of living. Does that make sense? Analogies are great.

John: Amy, did you have something?

Amy: I have a million things I want to ask you. I have a much, much, much less astrological background than the two of you do, so I’m trying to sort of translate or relate what you’re saying to the Human Design System. What’s coming across to me, it sounds like you went after this study looking for how to look at these underlying, in Human Design what we would call the Mechanics of Life. What are the underlying mechanics that are there, that are logical, and reliable? Things that we can look at to see how this all works? That’s kind of the research analysis part of it. Then, I was really interested in what you were saying about externalizing, looking at it from the external or objective point of view, rather than the subjective personality experience. I’m wondering if when you’re talking about that, do you mean that you’re looking at events that are actually happening as a way of validating that, or as a way of seeing the output of that? That doesn’t necessarily say much about how each of us as individuals is going to experience those events, or how we’re going to interpret them, or how we’re going to work with them, or how we’ll get creative with them. Just looking at the facts of the mechanics and the events, would you say that’s a way to see it?

Maria: When I describe my work, I use this slide that has- it’s very dual in my perspective, and I have a lot of Gemini, I do tend to see things in dual perspectives. I see astrologists as having an external side, that’s the material side. Then, there’s a formal side or an internal side. Different elements speak more to one side or the other. You see that in different schools of astrology, where the older traditional astrology tends to be more external looking, whereas the modern astrology tends to be more internal. This is how you describe the personality, the character, the motivations, the drives, all of that psychological stuff, that is the internal stuff. Astrology is great because it gets at both. It’s the link between them that, to me, is the most interesting. That’s the holy grail that I’m working towards.

I tend to work backwards, whereas more modern astrologers will tend to work from the internal out. I do it the other way, I start with the layout and then work inward. I work towards the inside toward finding out, “Now that we’ve established that these symbols are related to these outer objective events, how do those symbols relate back to us internally?” Now, we have the correct symbols, we have the correct outer world manifestation, and we can now begin to see internally how it relates to us, to our drives, and our place in that external experience. This is something that is harder to do from the inside out because, from the inside out, you have multiple instantiations and possibilities of what can occur. You don’t know which one relates back to a particular symbol.

Say you have a Saturn transit, and you can have multiple ways in which that can manifest externally. If you start from the external event itself, there’s only one way back in, and it’s through that symbol. You already have that particular event, you work backward, and now you know this is a Saturn event, it’s tied to this particular configuration in the chart. Now I can see the exact outward manifestation of that event, and I can begin to relate it back to how I participate in it.

Amy: It sounds in a way, like you’re pointing to something that we talk a lot about in Human Design. I am curious about how you see this, where I think the way a lot of us are oriented to life, is to think that we should go at it from me. “What is my experience?” “Who am I?” “What do I want to experience?” We sort of go after life that way, but the way you’re describing it, I think, also the way Human Design is described is that’s actually not the way to go about it. You want to actually start with the sort of mechanical laws of the universe, and of life, and see the reality on some level, the mechanical reality of what you’re dealing with. Once you see that, then that can inform how you’re actually interpreting your own experiences and what you do with them. Maybe it shows us something about our nature, maybe it shows us something about what’s inevitable in some way, or already there for us in some way. There’s something in it that to me feels like starting from the acceptance of the nature that’s already there. Then, dealing with reality on that level, rather than a confused inner interpretation of what’s happening.

Maria: I didn’t realize that that’s how it was approached in Human Design as well. I really liked that because it’s more grounded. It connects us much better to the world around us, I think. Actually, that’s one of the things about astrology that I think has been over-emphasized is the ‘me’ aspect of it. It’s hard to see our connection to the world when we’re so focused on ourselves. We’re so focused on our own individuality, our neurosis, our psychosis, our personalities, whatever. It makes it harder to see how we fit into a larger perspective, a larger framework.

If you look at the history of astrology, it was invented or implemented. I wouldn’t say discovered, but it was, I would say, invented in order to address the outer world. It was invented to address our place and our navigation in the outer world. I don’t advocate going back to that on the same level, because I think we’ve evolved from there. I think the perspective that we have now about the understanding that astrology addresses both the inner world and the outer world is a huge leap forward. Now, we can start connecting them, and that’s the part that I think needs to be done. We can’t connect something unless we also address the fact that there’s something out there as well. To me, that’s the more interesting part of astrology. It’s also one of the reasons I focus more on the research now and not so much on doing consultation work.

There’s so much that needs to be done in the dark realm, in the realm of connecting the inner and the outer, that hasn’t been done, that I want to do. There are a lot of other people doing the consultation and the personal, which is important as well, because ultimately, that’s what you want, you want to grow as a species, and you need to understand yourself to be able to understand the world around you. You also have to understand the world around you and how it relates back to you. Otherwise, our planet’s doomed. I think that’s kind of a problem that’s going on right now.

John: One of the criticisms that I sometimes hear leveled at astrology, or one of the problems that I’ve also personally seen in astrology, is the subjective nature of interpretation. Where we can take something like this, kind of like you were saying earlier, and interpret it so many different ways. Say we see a Saturn transit, and then we start looking for examples of it in our life like, “Well, it’s probably this, or it could be that.” It sounds like some of the work that you’ve been doing from that kind of that outside working in, that deconstruction, in order to understand what the patterns are, and the fundamental mechanics or laws that are operating here can help address. You have an example of something that’s manifesting. It’s something that’s a little bit more concrete, and less subjective, it’s not about an interstate, for example. Then, you can either refine that or be able to kind of isolate, “Well, what were the important components of this interaction or this piece?” You know what I’m kind of getting at here?”

Maria: Yes, and we’re lucky that we have the vocabulary in place to do that. What I mean by vocabulary is the content associated with the symbols. We know the words associated with these planets, with the signs, with the houses, those three large components. I don’t want to get too technical about astrology, but we know the meaning. What I call vocabulary is the meaning; we know what those things symbolize. That’s a good starting point, because otherwise, we wouldn’t be able to start connecting the dots, outside events, and the tiny things if we didn’t have that vocabulary. That’s been in place for thousands of years. That’s the starting point.

The part we don’t have is what I’ve been talking about, it’s the structure, how those things put our place together. They’re not random. In astrology, and this is one of my pet peeves, we put them together randomly, we kind of throw them in, and we blend them like we’re making paint. I think it’s problematic because we can’t say anything. If we do that, that is reliable or consistent, we’re all over the place because this person is putting this color together with that color and saying, “It’s magenta,” and then that person is saying, “No, it’s turquoise.” It’s just all over the place. It makes the profession a little unreliable, in my opinion. You can do that more easily when you’re doing internal work. Internally, the meaning is usually the same for everyone, the planets are pretty well established. The internal work usually relies on the planets and nothing more.

All the other stuff in the chart is external, it’s all about the outside framework. The planets are the stuff that we identify with most internally, they’re the essence, the pure essence. It’s easy to do psychological astrology or character-based astrology if all you’re doing is talking about the static qualities. They are static, which makes it hard to make astrology something that’s relevant throughout life. I’m talking about the birth chart, not about the changing planetary movements, that’s not static. However, the birth chart is static. One of the things that I rally against is the idea that the chart is within us, that we carry the chart in us, somehow in our DNA, that it’s somehow internal to us. I think the chart is internal to us.

Let’s go back to the game analogy, which I think is a good one. When you’re born, you’re born into a moment in time, right? There are transits going on, it’s no different than to transit at any other time of your life. This happens to be the one that’s when you’re born, so you imprint on it somehow. It may be in our biology, but I don’t know exactly how that happens. We imprint on this external reality that occurs at the moment of birth. The analogy I like is that when you enter a game, you create a profile, you create your avatar. That to me is like the birth chart. The birth chart is like the avatar that you are embodying during that game. During that lifetime, this is your avatar, but it’s not you the person playing the game. It’s the persona that is created at the time you enter the game. It’s an identifier. The problem is, when we identify too much with it. We are participating at that moment, and it becomes our persona, profile, or avatar so to speak. However, it’s not you. You, the player, control the game. You’re not the persona, but you are identifying with the persona a little too much when you think you need to do everything like your persona.

This goes back to, “What is the chart?” Are we supposed to do everything the chart indicates? That would be like never evolving over time, you’re just statically supposed to be what you were when you were born, that moment in time that you’re identifying with. No, that moment in time allows you to navigate the rest of your life, but I don’t think it’s meant to be what you’re supposed to do. I used to get a lot of clients who were like, “What am I supposed to do? What should I do?” As if there’s no personal choice in the matter. As if somehow there’s a right path, and that right path is in your birth chart, from the moment you were born. Do you know what I’m saying?

John: There’s so much to unpack there. There are like three or four things that all relate to some of the ways we’ve been working with Human Design.

Maria: Yeah, I have a feeling you guys work with it in a similar way.

John: There are some interesting correlations and overlapping. Amy, did you want to jump in?

Amy: It was very interesting to me the way you said that the birth chart is almost like a snapshot or something of our imprint on the universe. In Human Design, the way it tends to be phrased is almost like the moment of our birth shows how we, our forms and our bodies, are imprinted by the cosmos. It’s saying this is showing the imprint of the cosmos on our form. I love what you’re saying, but the difference is that in Human Design, we would say it’s just showing us the characteristics and the mechanics of the body. It’s not saying anything about who you really are. In some ways, we could say it’s showing what you are, it’s showing the characteristics you’re dealing with based on the moment you arrived. However, it’s not saying anything about who you actually are, or who can be. How could anything actually name that, the who of what we are?

Maria: To be fair to that approach, there is something that goes back to Heraclitus. You touched upon that, who we are and how can you know exactly who you are, because who you are, cannot be distilled into an identity. While we’re on this earth, the only way to know who we are, as the player, is to take on that body, that avatar, or that persona that allows you to see something else having the agency. I don’t want to call it the ‘soul’, but some people might, whatever you want to call it. Something that pre-exists before the actual physical entity exists. It’s sort of like, you can’t know one without the other. You can’t know the self without knowing the Not-Self. This is a very Heraclitean statement, but there are always opposites at play here. In order to know one thing, you have to know its opposite. In order to know this avatar, you need this other thing that’s driving the avatar, which is bigger than the avatar. I totally understand why that is. It evolved into birth astrology because it was not that for 2,000 years. I can understand why it went in that direction because there was a need to go in that direction to understand the larger system. Perhaps, I don’t know. It’s complicated. We’re limited by our, by our physical existence.

Amy: It’s a specificity. It’s a differentiation. It’s also an inherent limitation. We can’t physically manifest everything. That’s not possible. We are manifesting this specific thing that we happen to be in this moment.

Maria: There are some really good books. He was not an astrologer, but he did do some work in astrology. Arthur Young, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of him. He was the inventor of the Bell Helicopter, and he wrote books on metaphysics. Two of his books, in particular, get at this problem, but they get at the problem through conventional science. It’s fascinating how he does that. He gets there through conventional science. He gets out this problem of the limitations of physical existence but explains it in a way that we can understand that there’s something beyond that physical existence.

Amy: I’m really curious, too, about what you’re saying with the moment of birth. It’s almost a problem to think it’s something static that we’re supposed to adhere to for the rest of our lives. I can almost see or imagine- would you say then it’s sort of like, “That shows us the avatar,” whatever it is, how it came into play the game, but then we’re going to see this whole evolution of that, through the transits, as they move. Is that what you’re watching, to actually see what the progression is, or the flow of change?

Maria: There is another thing, which is the actual birth chart itself turning in a symbolic way. That is much more personal. The weather, and the transits that we all experienced together, play into that. They’re sort of like the triggers, but they’re the triggers of a more personal journey that is also unfolding. That journey, it’s all participation, because ultimately, you’re here playing it. You’re participating in it. You get into these questions of fate and free will, and that’s definitely an important question to have. We are programmed by all these parameters, let’s call them parameters, language. In the code, we’re in the code, and so we have to play by the codes and rules.

There’s this element, just like in a game, where there are these situations that arise that you have to navigate through. That navigation is a choice there. There is a creative element to it. I think I got off track on your original question, but there are these elements of creativity as I like to call it, in existence, even within those limitations. It’s knowing the parameters, that’s the important bit. I don’t think we know enough about those parameters. We don’t know how much leeway we have and how much control we have over certain things. I’m not a gamer, but I keep coming back to the game analogy. Are we the elf? Do we deal with the magic? Are we in the gaming world? Are we the guy? Do we have a massive bunch of weapons? That’s just a simple analogy, but we don’t know those parameters very well.

John: There are actually some pretty good correlations in Human Design with this analogy we’re using. Gaming or being in a game. An example might be what’s called Profile, we have certain keywords associated with Profile, meaning the Line Activations of the Personality Sun and the Design Son. In other words, what line of the Hexagram is being activated by that planet at the time of birth and approximately three months before the birth? That describes a certain role or character, or you can maybe say a style of moving through the aim through life. That person has a point of reference. For example, a 6/2 profile would be the role model hermit, a 2/4 would be the hermit opportunist or the 5/1 would be the heretic investigator. The way we work with that, Human Design is like a point of reference or checkpoint. The more we’re living as ourselves, the more we’re playing this role or this character, and you’re going to see those qualities expressed or being displayed in a way. It just kind of happens as a result of being oneself. That’s a kind of interesting connection to the game analogy.

Maria: I know that in Human Design, there is a part of the chart that is more the real self and the part that is more the profile. Is that correct?

John: That’s the other thing I wanted to come back to that you had touched on, there actually is a distinction being made in Human Design between the True Self and the Not-Self. In Human Design, it’s kind of speaking more about the True Self, who we are authentically, and what we are. As we were saying earlier, how is our energy set into a certain pattern? How is it designed to move through life? How do we make choices and decisions in a way that is resonant with who we are, that’s the True Self. The Not-Self tends to be almost like a non-existent alter ego that we have, where we have adopted almost a false sense of self based on the influences, conditioning, and homogenization coming in from, our families, our culture, and the world. We respond to that by developing these sets of behaviors, adaptive strategies, or coping strategies, and then we begin operating from that place. That’s not really who we are, it’s usually fueled by mental decision-making that seems to perpetuate that.

A big part of Human Design is tapping back into our form consciousness, the intelligence in these forms, these bodies, with the idea that these bodies were kind of designed or evolved to take us through this life to take us through the game and help us navigate the game. We ended up just kind of not doing that, we override what our body is telling us. We don’t listen, we’re running basically, on mental scripts and narratives that someone else has given us. That’s kind of the distinction between the True-Self and Not-Self as I understand it in Human Design.

Maria: That’s very interesting. So the Not-Self is not in the chart, it’s external to it? Both influences that you’re talking about?

John: You can see the Not-Self themes and patterns in the chart, usually through the open centers and the open gates, where we tend to be most receptive to outside influences. Where the mind will tend to take up residence and then start trying to direct or navigate the life based on, again, some sort of mental process. That can be read from the chart, is there a correlation in the astrological tradition to that?

Maria: For the Not-Self? Yes, actually, everything that is external to us, can be those influences. We can encounter the patterns that are in the chart, both within and outside. Sometimes we embody them, sometimes we project them out when we don’t want to look at them, or when we’re not just when we don’t have a lot of affinity with those patterns. There was something interesting that you said that reminded me of something else with regard to the body.

The chart as a whole, I think you know this, represents- taking the planets out of it, what’s left is the landscape, the terrain, that’s the material part. There is a tradition in antiquity that does this, where that part of the chart, and it includes the houses and the signs, taking the planets out. That is the terrain that you’re working with. That terrain has an analogy with the body itself. The whole chart can be looked upon as your body, and you actually have medical diagnoses that come from that. There’s a whole tradition of that through the signs and through the houses they occupy. That’s the physical terrain. You can even look at the chart in terms of that being more real in a sense because that’s the outer stuff. It’s the material world the planets are not, the planets are never material, they don’t occupy the earth. They’re outside the Earth. They’re something formal they’re something intelligent. They are the essences that I’m talking about that are platonic. They don’t exist on Earth, but they interact with the material side of it.

It sounds like it’s similar to what you’re saying, in Human Design, that there’s this physical element that has more truth to it because it’s external, because it’s outside of our perception of it. When we introduce the formal side, the intelligent and dynamic part of it, the planets are the dynamic, intelligent part. There’s a lot of confusion that comes from that it’s a very messy process, just like life. It’s a messy process.

Another thing about the external part that is important is the seasonal element to it, there’s a seasonal element to that sequence. It’s just like the signs, and that’s external. The signs are kind of a go-between the intelligent formal side and they are the thing that drives change because they represent the seasons. What we’re talking about is understanding the changes that occur within the external world, the material part, and how the intelligent part navigates that change, navigates those seasons.

John: That’s fascinating. I have to jump in. We’ve got the signs of the zodiac as, at least in the tropical zodiac, being directly related to the seasons. In Human Design, we’re not using the science directly, per se. However, they do show up in some Human Design charts. And they’re used in the calculations of the positions of the planets in the zodiac. In Human Design, there is a further subdivision of the wheel, the mandala, and the zodiac into one of the 64 Hexagrams of the E Ching, which is roughly translated to ‘The Book of Change.’

Maria: I was going to go there before, and then that slipped my mind. I wanted to come back to it, and I forgot. That’s exactly right. I was going to mention that you guys don’t use the signs, but you use the Hexagrams, which is the book of change. It’s the seasonal component of that whole system, and it plays the same role, essentially. It’s fascinating that that system was developed that way because it makes total sense. It’s a very dynamic system. There’s more emphasis, I think, on the dynamic aspect of it in Human Design than there is in astrology. Sometimes that element gets lost, because we tend to see too much in astrology as static. The signs are personality rather than elements of change, the characteristics of change. The dynamic language gets lost there a little bit.

John: To kind of finish sketching out the arrangement. You could say, if you have the planets, which are roughly the same across both systems, some of the language that’s used for the planets or the significations are a little bit different, but they’re roughly the same. We’ve got the signs, more or less, being related to the Hexagrams of the E Ching. The obvious missing third piece is the houses, right? The houses represent the mundane, the mundane manifestations or areas, topics, and places of life.

Maria: I think of them as landscapes.

John: We don’t have houses in Human Design, but we have a birth chart called the BodyGraph. What do we have in place of the houses? Well, we have centers, which are also places. The Hexagrams are located in fixed positions in a center, and then you have a planet activating that position or not. In the same ways that you might see aspects in an astrological chart between houses, you have aspects, they aren’t called aspects, but you have relationships between planetary activations from center to center, which then are defined as channels. You see that there’s a roughly similar organization, even though it’s different. When we look at the BodyGraph, we’re not really looking at it well- I was going to say we’re not looking at the world. There’s a way to look at the world through the BodyGraph, which is really amazing. However, the primary use of it is to look at the energetic patterns of the individual, the underlying patterns, or mechanics that were imprinted at the time of birth and the three months before the birth.

Maria: This goes back to the whole language element because the similarities you’re seeing are part of this logos that I’m talking about. The fact that you have two systems, and you can probably extrapolate that to other systems that address the change if you want, and material change, or psychological change. If you have a language that addresses the same thing, you need those components. You need a component that’s dynamic. You need a component that addresses the thing that’s being changed, the objects. In language, it would be the verbs and the objects. You have to have language that addresses the origin of the change, which in grammar would be the subject.

In astrology, it is the planets that move. They embody certain people, they have a certain dynamic, and they embody the subject. I don’t want to get into the whole grammar of it, but there have to be these elements because that’s the basic structure of how to understand the process of change. Those three elements have to be there. Someone to do the action, the action itself, and then the thing being acted upon, those are the basic triad of all change. Aristotle talks about this in his philosophy. These languages are useful in accounting for evolution and change. Aristotle calls his book Physics, but it’s not about physics. It’s about metaphysics, really, because it’s all about mental understanding of the world. In this way, it’s almost linguistic, His whole philosophy is linguistic because he goes back to the words being used, and how the logic is inherent in the definitions and the meanings of the words.

We’re always going back to this idea of words. This idea of these elements being present in all languages. I would call Human Design a language system as well. So is astrology, so is mathematics, and so are all of the symbol systems, they’re all language systems. They’re symbols, so they’re language systems. If they’re good ones, they have these three elements to them. I toy with Tarot sometimes, and I say to myself, “When I’m retired, I’ll have to figure out the language of Tarot too.” I’m sure there’s a structure there I’m just like, “I don’t know, there’s no time for that.”

John: As you were just sharing that it, it kind of brought to mind, the professional training, the PTL training, that Amy and I went through. It’s for the Analyst path, to become certified as an Analyst in Human Design. A big part of that training was called keynoting. It’s a relatively precise way of taking the language of Human Design, and they refer to the keynotes of say a Channel or a planet, or a Gate or a Line, and then synthesizing those into a coherent sentence that is both relevant to what’s being looked at but then can be understood by the client. A lot of that training was based around memorizing and getting comfortable with those words, with those keynotes. It was emphasized that they were specifically used for a reason.

I’ve gone through a couple of exercises in my own study and practice of going back and doing what you’re describing in astrology, which is deconstructing. Let’s say, the Channel names, for example, why is this Channel named the way it is? Why did Ra, the person who transmitted Human Design to the world, why did he call this Channel a particular name or word? What I saw was, it was a combination of all of those things. It was a combination of the two centers that are connected, the two states that comprised it. He had encapsulated that into one word that could then be used. From there, once that’s internalized, and you’re working with a client or someone sitting across from you, there’s this art of synthesis or being able to work within the context with the person who, again, is sitting across from you. Then, you make it meaningful to them or find out how that’s meaningful in the context of their experience. Anyway, the language part is what I’m really drawing attention to, which is being somewhat disciplined about how we’re using these words and not just letting anything be anything. It’s a pretty slippery slope in any system to approach it that way.

Maria: It’s a big problem in astrology, I think. It’s the reason why I started doing this work because there was a gap there. There are people doing a lot of great work in astrology, but I didn’t find a lot on the structure of the language itself, other than what we’ve been handed down through antiquity. There is a lot there in antiquity that’s structured, but not enough. I wanted to go beyond that. To me, it just felt like a natural fit.

Amy: As you’re looking at the research that you’re doing now, what is it that you’re- I don’t know if it’s too technical to be able to describe to sort of general people, but what is it that you’re really after? One piece that’s really grabbed me about what you’re talking about is that it seems like this analogy of being in the game, it’s like we’ve got certain code to work with, we’ve got certain mechanics, and certain rules to deal with. Then, within that, there is a certain amount of creativity or agency. Is that a big part of what’s related to the research that you’re doing?

Maria: You’re good, you listen well. You’ve gotten exactly to the thing that I’m trying to figure out. There are all these rules, and even just defining the rules more properly is a large part of the work. Once you know the rules and the parameters, and you know what’s outside the parameters- what’s outside the parameters is the creative part, the part that’s not being structured in the system of coding. It’s the part that you contribute your input as the player, it’s the part you bring to the game. That’s what I’m trying to find. This is a way to say it, not technically.

To be more specific, there are specific elements of that, that go back to different techniques. Inevitably, it goes back to how I have to rely on the structures and build upon what I’ve already found. Which are the elements that are external to us, the elements that are internal to us, how much of the internal stuff gets externalized, and do we have control over that externalization? Do we have a say in that? I think we do. It’s kind of like you’re given a set of options, you’re playing the game, and you know you’re going to go into this particular room, and you’re going to find x, y, and z in this particular room. However, in that particular room, you have options that aren’t coded. You have options that come from your own ingenuity, your own creativity, those are the things that I’m looking for.

Amy: I see. So, you may not be able to control whether or not you go into that room, it might be that that’s the law, you’re gonna go into that room. There are going to be those things there that you’re going to have to accept if you’re going to deal with reality.

Maria: That’s the weather, and that’s the landscape that you’re given.

Amy: Then, what you do with it, we don’t know, you might be able to come up with some way of working with what’s there that no one’s ever seen before, or that someone else wouldn’t have been able to come up with.

Maria: To put it very simply, it’s like the seasons. You know you’re going to have winter, it’s going to come. If you’re familiar with winter, if you have a lot of exposure to winter- this is a very simple way of saying something very technical, but if you’re used to winter, and you have a lot of familiarity with winter, you have more options. You’re skilled at it, you’ve had experience with it, you have that familiarity. We tend to go in the direction of our familiarity, which is why we identify with our birth chart. We tend to go in that direction, but we have, we can have options that we might not have considered before. Being exposed to as much of the programming as there is makes you more equipped to deal with different situations and to have more options.

Amy: I love the way you’re putting that because it seems like, particularly in the way that a lot of modern, popular Western culture orients now, I think some of the ways people tend to behave can almost be like, “I’m walking into this room.” That’s the reality, but I’m just going to pretend it’s a different room. It’s winter, but I’m just going to pretend it’s summer. I’m going to make up a bunch of stuff, and then I’m going to get really confused when things don’t make sense and everything’s a huge mess. I feel like what you’re pointing to is to say, “See the laws that you’re working with, get really familiar with them, and you’re going to become really adept and maybe skilled with the nuances of it. Then, you can be creative with it and find new ways of experiencing it or doing something with it.”

Maria: Exactly. When we identify too much with our chart, as inside of us, it limits us in a lot of ways. It doesn’t allow us to see other possibilities. I think that’s what living is about. Otherwise, why would we have to experience a whole lifetime after birth?

John: I’m thinking of this fun game analogy that we keep using. Walking into that room, you said, we kind of go towards the familiar, or we can identify with certain traits or aspects of ourselves. You can imagine that if you’re a game programmer, the characters are going to go through that room. That’s the way to the next level, but when you get into that room, there’s a whole bunch of different options. There are clues in there and there are things you can go and open that are safe or not. You may have missed that safe, or you may go pick up the food in the corner or not. It’s almost like there is this element of, like you said, the choice of the person who is playing the game that seems to be almost required for it to be an interesting game. If you think about game theory, for example, it would be very boring if all you do is just every time walk through this room and there’s no consequence for what you do while you’re in that room.

The other piece of it too is if you were building a game, if you were designing a game or a simulation, you would probably want to throw in an element of just complete randomness to make it more interesting. I don’t know that that’s necessarily the same thing as the individual choice. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. That gives me some interesting areas to explore, but that seems to resonate with how I’m experiencing being in this lifetime on this planet. There are random events. There does seem to be at least in this certain context, choice, or at least the illusion of choice. That’s necessary to fully play this game if it’s going to be a meaningful and interesting game.

Maria: I think the randomness is part of choice. When I think of choice, I think of the sun, I think of light. I think light is choice. Actually, in the language of astrology, you find that everywhere. For example, the Babylonians called Saturn, “the Sun of the night.” The keyword that Schmidt uses for Saturn is necessity, well necessity is an absence of choice, which is what the Babylonians were saying about Saturn. It’s the thing you have to experience where there is no choice. It also happens to be the planet farthest from us when you’re looking just with the naked eye. It is the darkest planet because it’s farthest from the Sun. There’s an element to it that lacks light. That lack of light is lack of choice. This equation between light and choice is everywhere in the literature. It’s a really good guide, actually, for a lot of technical uses of a lot of things in astrology. Getting back to your point, randomness to me is just a choice that either doesn’t originate with us, or that originates far in time and looks random. At some point, it wasn’t random. At some point it was someone or something else’s evolution, the outcome or the unfolding of something farther away, or in time, or in space either through someone else or in faraway time. It just looks random to us in the great scheme of things. There’s an article that Schmidt talked about a lot called The Law of Seriality It actually becomes relevant with regard to viruses, oddly enough, where he’s talking about the work of Paul Camerer. Have you heard of this guy?

John: I’ve heard the name.

Maria: Probably through Schmitt stuff. He talked about coincidences, and what they are. He studied coincidences, and what I’m doing with the language of astrology, he did with coincidences. He tried to understand them in their nature, their composition, and all sorts of things. What he was saying about coincidences is that it’s kind of like what that doctor was saying about viruses. The new thinking on viruses is that they’re part of DNA, right? They’re RNA strands. They’re parts of decaying DNA that are let go by the entity. This is what he’s saying about coincidences. They’re part of an initial event, that is spread out over time, and they’re broken up. You don’t know from looking at them what the initial event is. Every so often, they meet each other. The parts that were from the same origin and have a connection to each other, and they somehow run into each other randomly, or by some law of affinity, I don’t know. They’re a part of the same original event. In my mind, it sounds similar. There’s something that originates in some choice somewhere, it’s spread out into the universe, and it looks random to the normal passerby, but it’s part of a genesis somewhere that has brothers and sisters out there.

John: That’s really interesting. I am kind of making the connection towards the perceived randomness possibly coming from individuals and the choices that they make. For example, in Human Design, when we talk about choice, we’re usually talking about decision-making. There’s kind of a key concept or component of the Human Design System, which is called Inner Authority, and this refers to the individual’s correct decision-making process that is reliable for who they are, from a true or authentic self point of view. That’s usually in the body. One of the things that is said is that the mind can never be an Inner Authority. It can be an Outer Authority for others in terms of sharing our perspective or awareness or in a way that can be valuable for somebody else.

When it comes to navigating our own life, it’s the body, the vehicle, that’s actually designed to do that. That’s Inner Authority. We talk about, for example, having an emotional Authority, which means that you have the patience to wait for clarity. To come to a decision, decision-making is a process that happens through time and through a cycle of emotions, for example. My Authority, which is will-based, or is the heart-ego center, and it’s about, “What do I want? What do I have the will for? What can I commit to?” That’s something that happens without a lot of mental awareness. It feels almost like getting pulled in.

To bring it kind of back to what we’re talking about, when we look at something like the weather, or the transit program, one of the things that I saw a lot of in astrology, and still do is that astrologers essentially take the transits as an event that is just going to happen. This is just the way it is. Let’s say, Uranus is entering my fourth house, for example, well, I’m gonna move. I need to move, or I’m going to move. That may or may not be true. You could certainly say that the weather is pushing you in the direction of moving, there is a strong influence towards moving right now. However, from the point of view of Human Design, working within the BodyGraph, the point isn’t to just blindly follow the transits and just do whatever Saturn, Jupiter, or Uranus is doing in your chart, but to remain following your strategy and your Inner Authority. Your own internal decision-making process is a more reliable guide or indication of whether you move or not.

In other words, there isn’t a complete inevitability in terms of what we’re seeing in the weather, in the transit influences that are coming in, if the person has another point of reference, something within themselves that they can then make a decision from that’s not totally based on the influences. That may seem like a disruption in the program on some level.

Maria: I’m not sure if it’s a disruption or if it’s built into the probe. This is part of the lack of knowledge of the code. When you have a transit, and you think it’s inevitable that something will come out of it- let’s say Uranus is in your fourth house. What you’re feeling internally, is Uranus. You’re feeling that planet, you’re going to act like that planet. You’re going to have some kind of action that’s relevant to that planet, related to that planet’s significations. However, there’s a whole terrain around that planet that hasn’t been analyzed at all. It hasn’t been looked at, it hasn’t been done. That’s just because we don’t understand the code very well.

Number one, understanding the code is necessary to know even if it’s inevitable or not. Two, having understood the code, I don’t think it’s inevitable, because even when you understand the code, built into the code are options. Let’s say that Uranus is a liberating change. The planets are not concrete events, they’re just types of change, just like the Hexagrams. It’s a type of change. So, the planet comes and you have a dynamic pull towards liberation, but then the sign and the terrain tell you what is motivating that? Why do you have that pull? Why do you feel this? That ‘why’ is controlled by some other thing out there. Maybe it’s because you lost your job, and you need to move, or you need the finances in your house to move, or you need something else, right?

Something else is compelling you to move, but in a different chart, there may be other reasons why you’re compelled to liberate. Maybe you have a domestic situation that’s not very liberating, that’s kind of oppressive. That whole terrain around that impetus to liberate has to be looked at and it’s often not. We just fall back on our standards. “This planet has shown to correlate with moves.” It’s a probabilistic statement like 20% or 50% of the time. In our heads, we’re making the calculation, we don’t really know the statistics at all, but we’re making it up. “Oh, and you know, the majority of the times I’ve seen this in my experience, it means a move.” So, that’s part of it, but now we’re getting back to this larger question of, is it part of the game? Is it violating the system? I don’t know if it’s violating the system as much as it’s seeing the options in the system that maybe hadn’t been seen. Maybe in that Inner Authority that you’re talking about, are there differences in the types of interest? There are, I think I remember that. Those different types are giving you different options within the choices that you have. In Human Design, is it inevitable, that something will happen with that planet, or can it just go by, you feel it internally, and then nothing happens?

John: Yes, the latter.

Maria: That’s the same in astrology. This is just a lack of experience from a lot of astrologers- there are a lot of astrologers who see a heavy planet come through, and they’re automatically thinking, “Something’s going to shake up my life, big time.” Then, it comes, and it’s like, “Well, nothing changed. I felt it inside, I actually felt it, I considered changes. I went through the mental exercise of it, but nothing actually changed on the outside.” That happens a lot with transits. That’s why the transits are not reliable indicators of the evolution of your life. I use the turning of the chart into the seasons as a more reliable indicator. Some people just use the transits, and while they are definitely things to look at because they do influence our choices, they’re not the whole story in and of themselves.

The larger question that you’re asking, that’s still open for debate. The level of choice actually also depends on the person I think. This has to do with light. It has to do with the ability to see because light is the ability to see and consider options. I’m thinking of people whose lives just beat them down, and it’s not because their chart is worse than other people’s charts, it’s because their ability to see other options and consider them is more restricted. I think that transcends the chart, I think that is a part of something. I’m not sure if it transcends, to be honest, it may be there and I just don’t know where it is. I do think it has something to do with light and experience, of the capacity to shine light on certain situations.

John: It makes sense. Going back to the analogy of light and dark with the light of the sun, it brings the greater ability to see the options, or to have awareness of what’s happening, what’s possible, or what’s out there. Reality, as it is, even. Whereas in the dark, the Saturn thing, the necessity, it may be that this is all that it is and it can never be different. I just have to do this because I have no options, I have no choice. It’s like the opposite of the awareness, the light, the seeing.

Maria: We have it in our language. We say it all the time, “I’m in the dark about this. I have no clue.” It’s baked into our language. It’s there for a reason, I don’t think it’s random. We know it’s tied to light, the sun, and the moon. The question is, how much of it is there in the chart? How much of it is there outside of the chart? It’s hard for me to say to someone, “Well, you’re never going to have any creativity in your life, because you don’t see any options since you have no light in your chart.” I don’t think that makes sense. The person has to be here for a reason, they have to be here to see those options. Maybe they have more difficulty seeing that, and that impairs their evolution, and their choices.

John: Is it awareness?

Maria: Yeah, it’s awareness. That’s what we’re talking about, awareness. Awareness contributes to the ability to see other choices, the ability to see light, hence, light, comes from the light. The ability to see comes from there being more light. So, the more awareness you have, the more choices you have. That’s another thing to look at in the chart and see, where exactly is that, and how much of it is there? The birth chart changes over time, it evolves, it turns, so people are not static. “Oh, it’s not in my birth chart, therefore, I’m never gonna see the light.” Yeah, there’s room for growth, hopefully.

John: There’s another piece of this which I wanted to touch on, and it’s the nodes, the lunar nodes. In Human Design, the nodes represent, and I know there’s some overlapping with astrology here, but it represents more or less the path that we’re on in life, the road. Sometimes it’s referred to as the stage of life, it has a lot to do with the environment, and then what we see in our environment. It’s what we end up focusing on or being attuned to. There is a general movement from the south node in the first half of the life moving to the north node in the second half of the life, which I’ve seen some interesting correlations within various astrology systems. Then there’s, I guess you would call it a karmic piece, associated with the nodes in that being on a certain trajectory in life, or a certain kind of movement through life. They sometimes use the word fractal. This is the pattern of movement of life. You can kind of think about this from a point of view of, say, the rotation of the Earth, the rotation of the movement of the solar system of the galaxy, and then the individual starting at coming into the world at a certain point. There literally is a movement through time and space, symbolically it’s represented by the nodes in the chart. I was kind of wondering, from your experience working with different astrological systems and looking at the history of astrology, how are you approaching the nodes? Do you see any correlations there with the common understanding of the notes in astrology?

Maria: Historically, there are different thoughts on the nodes, and depending on what system you’re used to. I just do everything empirically, so I tend to just work with the outer first. When I’ve seen the nodes in outer work, they tend to be involved in events because I’m looking at events. So what I noticed is that there’s an element to the nodes that has to do with connections. Now, astronomically, and this plays into my understanding of it too, they are points in space. They’re not like the planets, they don’t have an internal inner movement, but they are points of connection. They are points, specifically, where the sun and moon come together at the eclipses.

There’s something very powerful about those points, but there’s also something connective about them because they’re connected to the sun and moon, crossing at that intersection. They are the lunar nodes that we use. So primarily, it’s the lunar cycle we’re talking about, but it’s where the lunar cycle meets the solar cycle. I’ve come to see that the interpretation that resonates most with that is the Uranian school, which has to do with the meeting of people. I would extend that, from what I’ve seen in events, I would extend it even farther than just people to the consolidation of energy through the north node and the dissipation of energy through the south node.

At the north node, things seem to coalesce. The right people seem to come together and they seem to stay for a long period. There’s not just a passing meeting, there’s something like you said karmic about that union. At the south node, its opposite energy it’s the dissipating of energy. You see it with regard to when the nodes come up with other planets together in the same sign. If you have, for example, a sun north node, there will be an important decision being made about some meeting, or some person that you have a relationship with, some union, that seems to come up a lot in these events. On the south node, the dissipation of the coming apart, it’s almost like Venus and Mars in a way, but bigger, more karmic, and extending outside of people. I wouldn’t include events, like some event that coalesces at a particular time with the North Node. Does that seem familiar with what you’re experiencing in Human Design, or is that very different?

Amy: I think this is a very interesting concept that you’re bringing up, Maria, about this coalescing and dissipation. I’d have to look through a bunch of charts and see if I can see that in events that I see happening for people.

Maria: Do the nodes also transit in Human Design?

Amy: This is a point of research that I’ve been wanting to do. It’s actually in the transits, where I have seen the most correlation with outer events. As the nodes in the major cycle transits, in Human Design, I see over and over again, people coming together based on on those correlations. Coming together, I see that for sure. I’m saying the same thing,

Maria: Since I’m working with outer so much, that’s probably why I’m seeing that as well with the events because you see it in synastry a lot. They represent important unions with people. They seem to connect to important relationships that are there for some pivotal reason.

Amy: I know we’re getting toward the end of our time, but I did have one more question because I’m curious about your research process. How do you conduct your research? Is that just through going through many charts, or?

Maria: Yeah, it’s mostly linguistic. It does involve going through charts, but not as many as if I were doing statistical analysis on them. Since I’m working with as close to 100% reliability as I can, I don’t need huge numbers. I’ll take one event, for example. Let’s say, an event in someone’s life, someone gets married, or someone leaves a job, or something. I’ll look at that event, and then I’ll analyze the language itself. From that language, I’ll see, depending on what particular hypothesis I’m looking at. I usually have hypotheses I’m working with.

For example, one of the last ones that I was trying to research was because I’m doing the seasonal work that I’ve written about. I wanted to find out what the functional difference between the season that we’re passing through is, as opposed to, and there are always comparisons going on, the season that should be in the terrain that we’re passing through. I wanted to relate those two parts of the chart. How are they different? They’re astronomically different. They’re coming up in different ways. What I do is I’ll take 20 charts of people that I know, that I have in my database, or even celebrities. People that I know are usually better because you need an intimate knowledge of the person’s life that you don’t always get with celebrities. I’ll take 20 people that I know, and I will examine that particular aspect. I’m looking at the comparison of those two seasons, and by looking at them, I’ll try to extrapolate consistent differences between them.

Once I have that difference, once I say, “This is the difference,” then I’ll take another 10 charts, and then I’ll say, “If this is the difference, then I should see it in these 10 charts of the ones that I don’t know.” That’s the testing part. There’s the extrapolation of the meaning that I’m looking for, for that particular hypothesis, and then there’s the testing of it. It’s very time-consuming because I’m trying to see what occurs in all 100 cases, to be reliable as the language. This is bad because I know exceptions exist in language, but because I’m not working statistically and doing huge data sets, because but I just don’t have access to that, I need a high degree of reliability. It’s a little geeky, but not as geeky as you might think.

Amy: Well, I think it sounds fascinating. I see a strong link between astrology, the way you describe it, and the way it sounds like you work with it, and a lot of the foundation of Human Design. I think the founder of Human Design was also very much looking for an objective foundation, something that was logical, and that was speaking to these parameters that we’re working with in life.

Maria: I’m not that well-versed in Human Design. John has tried to teach me. I know some of the terminology, some of the ideas, and some of the concepts, but just from speaking with him, and from his reading of my chart, I can see there’s a huge amount of overlap. Over the years of having John explain to me certain stuff, I can see how I’m always skeptical at the beginning of everything. Over time, I can see how there is, precision is the word that I’m looking for, there’s a precision to it that I appreciate. It’s hard for me to really grasp something unless I can see it in a lot of detail. Thankfully, John is patient.

John: That goes both ways.

Amy: Well, if people wanted to seek you out, are you available for that, or if they wanted to learn more about your teaching…

Maria: You can get in touch with me through my website, I have a contact form on there. I also have articles on there that you can read. I don’t do as much client work as I used to. I still do some client work for existing, older clients, established clients, and friends and family. I don’t have a huge amount of time to take on new clients, because I’m always doing research. However, you can reach me. I’m always open to talking astrology to anybody who’s curious. I’m always open to helping if you’re struggling with something in a chart. I have no problem helping anybody who wants to know more.

Amy: What’s your website?

John: Thank you so much. We’d love to have you back again to dive deeper and pick up some of these threads.

Maria: I’ll have to learn more about Human Design before then so I can speak more intelligently about it. I’d love to come back, sure. Anytime you want to talk. It was a lot of fun. It was great seeing you, John, and it’s good meeting you, Amy.

Maria: It’s

Amy: I really enjoyed it.

John: We finally got a recording of our conversations. Well, thank you again.

Maria: No problem.

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